Navigating Change in K-12 Education, with Michael McCormick

In this episode of Unpacking Education, we sit down with Michael McCormick, Superintendent in Residence at AVID Center, to explore what it really takes to lead through change in today’s educational landscape. With over three decades of experience—from juvenile probation to classroom teaching to district leadership—Michael shares insights from his personal journey and digs into practical change theory for schools.

Tune in to hear why understanding your "North Star" matters, how technology can empower rather than overwhelm, and what systems-level shifts can help educators stay grounded amid rapid transformation." Regardless of your role—be it in the classroom or at the district level—you’ll leave with thoughtful strategies to help navigate the evolving world of K–12 education.  Visit AVID Open Access to learn more.

Transcript

Michael McCormick 0:00 You go out there and you prepare the soil, you till the soil, and you get things ready for change. Then comes the planting and the nurturing, and that's where new practices, supports, and learning get to take root. But if you want those plants to thrive long term, you need the right climate, consistent care, and time.

Rena Clark 0:25 The topic for today's podcast is navigating change in K-12 education, with Michael McCormick.

Rena Clark 0:33 Unpacking Education is brought to you by avid.org.

Rena Clark 0:35 AVID believes in seeing the potential of every student. To learn more about AVID, visit their website at avid.org.

Rena Clark 0:46 Welcome to Unpacking Education, the podcast where we explore current issues and best practices in education. I'm Rena Clark.

Paul Beckermann 0:56 I'm Paul Beckermann.

Winston Benjamin 0:58 And I'm Winston Benjamin. We are educators,

Paul Beckermann 1:02 and we're here to share insights and actionable strategies.

Transition Music with Rena's Children 1:07 Education is our passport to the future.

Rena Clark 1:10 So our quote for today is from John C. Maxwell. It's a short one, but a powerful one, and he says, "Change is inevitable, growth is optional." All right? Paul, Winston, what do we think this week?

Paul Beckermann 1:26 Wisdom in just a few words, right? To me, this quote is all about how we respond to change when it happens, and it will happen, right? But what do we do when that happens? Do we rise to the occasion and work our way through to a better place, or do we throw our hands up and say, "I guess there's nothing we can do about the situation?"

And I think, in my mind, anyway, it's either an obstacle or an opportunity, and I think those people that can see it as an opportunity have a leg up on other people. And really, it's part of what defines us as having strong character, and it's really an important trait to have, in my mind.

Winston Benjamin 2:04 You're a better man than me, Paul, because there are times when I stray away from the growth, and I think, "Oh, yeah, exactly." And I think the thing for me is the part that sticks with me is the optional. It's not an optional as in "never." It's an optional of "and when," because sometimes you might not be ready to make the change that you do need to make, and you need to take some time to process that.

So I think the optional for me is that it will come when you are ready and have the capacity to make that change, right? So sometimes it's hard, but just knowing that you can do it later on is something powerful as well.

Paul Beckermann 2:48 And maybe, maybe that merges together. Maybe that opportunity is to know that you need to leave the door open for that opportunity, right?

Winston Benjamin 2:55 A chance to make a chance. You get a chance to make a chance, you know.

Rena Clark 3:00 I love that sometimes you don't know that you even have that capability until you have to. All right. Well, I'm excited to dig into this a bit deeper. We are excited to welcome today Michael McCormick, so Michael is AVID Superintendent in Residence, so welcome, Michael. We're so glad you're here with us today.

Michael McCormick 3:19 Yeah, happy to, happy to be a guest on the show. Thanks for—thanks for the invitation. I appreciate it.

Rena Clark 3:27 Just to ground our audience, we love to just hear a little bit about yourself and your educational journey.

Michael McCormick 3:34 Oh my gosh. Let me try and give you the snapshot of the snapshot of the snapshot. This is the reduced elevator pitch: 34 years in education. Served out the last decade as superintendent of a school district in Southern California—about 20,000 students.

And what I like to tell people is, I taught. I was a teacher for six years. I actually became a mentor teacher, and so I was working with training other teachers before I got sucked into administration. But I like to say this story about my educational journey: my first professional job post getting my college degree is I worked in juvenile probation, and I was assigned to work in maximum security in juvenile hall in one of our counties, which is near me, and very excited to do that work, young person, you know.

And I was assigned to work a graveyard shift, and so I've been working graveyards for probably a year, and had a boss, crusty old guy named Fred Munson, who was my supervisor. And so he came around; it was probably about 2:30 or 3 o'clock in the morning, mostly to make sure I was still awake and that nobody was in danger.

And he said, "You know what? My..." Like he goes, "Soon enough, you're going to be my age." And Fred was probably in his early 50s at the time that this conversation took place. He says, "You know, you seem like a pretty bright guy. Why don't you go back to school, get your teaching credential, and see if you can have a positive impact on youth before they get tangled up in the juvenile justice system?" And I took his advice, and kind of the rest is history. Thank you, Fred. Yeah, thank you, Fred, right.

So yeah, that kind of began my journey in education. And what's kind of like—I joke about it now—but I was transitioning from working maximum security with, you know, basically juvenile offenders who were charged with murder and rape and carjacking and major narcotic sales, I mean, all the kinds of things that would land you in a maximum security setting. And my first teaching assignment, I was assigned to teach first grade.

Paul Beckermann 6:16 So kind of the same thing.

Winston Benjamin 6:17 Exactly.

Michael McCormick 6:19 I kept making the kids cry, and I wasn't intending on doing that. And a couple of months into my first grade experience, my principal came to me and said, "You know, I think you've got some talent, but I think you'd be a much better upper grade elementary teacher than a first grade teacher."

And so the very next year, I went from first grade to sixth grade. Sixth grade was still taught at the elementary school in the district that I was working in at the time. And you know, as any of you on the podcast could imagine, I was sent all the sixth graders who could maybe benefit from my influence as a male mentor and that kind of thing.

And so, you know what's interesting is some of those kids that I had in those early days actually made their way into education. And as a matter of fact, one student who I taught in my first year of teaching went, obviously, went to high school, went to college, and came back and was the AVID coordinator at the elementary school where I taught him. Now, is that a great story, or what?

Rena Clark 7:38 I love the connectedness. Yes.

Paul Beckermann 7:42 That is a great story. Well, you've been in education for a while now, and I'm sure you've seen considerable change over that time, even though some things stay the same. But there's change, right? So we're going to talk about that a little bit today. I was wondering if you could start us off, maybe by letting our listeners know a little bit about change theory. What is change theory?

Michael McCormick 8:04 Yeah, so I think, you know, change theory is basically—I'll kind of try and nutshell it—it's the mindset that's required to move from a current state to a desired future state, then improve student outcomes.

And I think the best way I could describe this is by kind of thinking about this in terms of like a school garden. You don't just throw the seeds out there and expect instant results. First, you kind of have to prepare the soil. And Kurt Lewin talks about that as kind of the unfreeze in the status quo. So you go out there and you prepare the soil, you till the soil, and you get things ready for change.

Then comes the planting and the nurturing, and that's where new practices, supports, and learning get to take root. But if you want those plants to thrive long term, you need the right climate, consistent care, and time, and that's sustaining that change over time. So that's kind of the best way I could describe change theory in a way that's relatable.

Because I think people get all mixed up, like, "This is a big scary thing." It's not. It is a scary thing because it's part of what I would like to say. It's kind of part of human nature to not want to change. It's like, "I know I need to lose the weight, but emotionally I'm too attached to food."

Winston Benjamin 9:44 Mike, get out of my head.

Michael McCormick 9:50 Right? So it's like one of these days I'm going to get back to cruiser weight, but I have to be ready to make that commitment. So that's—that's kind of change theory in a nutshell.

Winston Benjamin 10:04 So I love the fact that you're like, "Oh, yeah, change theory. Change theory. It's a great thing." And one thing that we always say is change is everywhere. Everybody's got a different change. But I'm going to ask you a question that kind of goes to the opposite of that, but I think it gets to the core that change is consistent, and maybe sometimes it's similar across all places, as you've gone through many of your years of experience, all the work that you're currently doing. What are some of the areas of change that you see school districts most often face in the educational landscape of today's world? Like, does that question make sense?

Michael McCormick 10:43 Yeah, it does. I mean, I'm going to—I'm going to give it a shot anyways. I think that one of the most challenging things about change in school districts is what authors Tyack and Cuban wrote about in their book called Tinkering Toward Utopia, which is kind of a seminal work around educational change theory. And it's that they describe it as the grammar of schooling.

The grammar of schooling is this idea that we all know what school should look like and feel like, and we've gotten used to that. And we've got generations of educators who have gotten used to that pull of the grammar of schooling which kind of tries to maintain the status quo and resist that change. And by the way, we serve a community with parents who have all been to school as well, and so they have their own personal experiences around what school should look like and feel like, which further kind of reinforces that concept of the grammar of schooling. And so it takes a tremendous amount of energy to enact something different.

And I also think about like the work that Rogers does with the technology integration, where you have this kind of curve that goes up and down, and it's everybody, from your early adopters to your innovators, and those are your idea people. This is the way I would describe this kind of model. And I'm one of those, by the way. Yeah, if I hear a good idea, like, I'm on board. I don't need to know how it works or what the results are. I'm all in on the idea. I'm sold.

And then you have your kind of next phase of people. And those are the people that are your process people. In other words, they need to understand a little bit about how this new initiative is going to work, and then they can jump on board and lend their support. And then you have the late supporters, or the laggards, as Rogers describes in this theory, and those are the people that need to see the results before they will lend their support to the initiative, or they may never lend their support at all.

So you've got the idea people who are willing to jump on board early, and then you've got your process people who are kind of that big middle group that need to understand a little bit about how the thing works. And then you've got your results people.

And then you think about that with respect to like, ChatGPT, right? And you think about the adoption curve of ChatGPT, and we're probably somewhere in the middle of that now, where we're beyond just the idea stage. We actually have the development of the processes, and people are starting to get—they're starting to see the impact, or the efficiencies that can be created as a result of this software. And the jury's still probably out in terms of long-term impact of where it's going.

So Winston, I tried my best to tackle that, and I think that in the education space, it's really that grammar of schooling concept that Tyack and Cuban talk about that keeps us grounded in a lot of those legacy mental models around what education should be.

Winston Benjamin 14:44 Yeah, traditionalism, right? The idea that "I had it this way. How do you kids do this?" It's the same way. My dad was mad at me because I didn't memorize the multiplication tables. And I was like, "I got a calculator," right? Right? Like, how do we allow for actual generations to experience school in the way that that generation needs?

Michael McCormick 15:04 Right? Yeah, that's—I mean, you're spot on in that. And I think about, you know, here's something I was reflecting on the other day: when I was a first grade teacher, if Mr. Wilcox, my principal, wanted to make contact with the teachers in the school, he had to see them face to face. There was no email system in my school when I started teaching, and I was excited to have the latest Motorola pager, because this was pre-cell phones.

And so I think about my career in education, and I think about the technology developments that have come. And I think what an incredible time to be alive, to go from Principal Wilcox having to literally visit every classroom—and this was back in the day when somebody came around and collected the attendance form from every classroom on campus—to think about some of these basic processes and the automation that we have today with the instant communications around email systems where teachers are connected in a campus or through text message, and even other like ClassDojo, we're now connecting, you know, parents into the classroom with some of these technology tools. So this represents the exponential change in some ways that I've been blessed to live through in my education career.

Rena Clark 16:49 I can say many of us, at least on the show, have had that unique experience of kind of the analog to digital. I know I've gotten to experience that, about how different it is, and some of my younger colleagues have no way to connect that for themselves.

It's a little bit of a balcony view of change at that high level. I want us to kind of zoom down to the dance floor for more of that individual, you know, people that are like the teachers, other people, the individuals. So thinking, what are the biggest challenges people are facing—individuals when confronted with change?

And be honest, at least where I am, there is so much change happening right now in our educational world, and just how—I mean, I'm experiencing it just personally right now. I think I've been displaced now two years in a row, departments cut, and I'm going through it. So how might people best navigate hard changes? I'm listening for advice for myself.

Michael McCormick 17:52 I love that. Well, I'm thinking about Brené Brown and the analogy that she uses when you're bloody and dusty and on the arena floor, and you've got people that are sitting in the balcony shouting wisdom and advice to you. And we know in education that unless you're on the arena floor in battle, as Brené Brown describes, this is an extremely emotional and challenging time for us, because the future is more uncertain and more ambiguous than it's ever been.

And you kind of take that, and I'm talking about in terms of, you know, development of software and artificial intelligence and the generative large language models that are being developed. And then you lay in the politics. And I'm talking about local politics, state politics, national politics, and the job of educator is more difficult now than it's ever been.

And I say that because the post-pandemic recovery period has lasted far longer than any of us could have ever predicted, and in some ways, we have yet to return to the communities that we had built prior to the pandemic, and I'm talking about the communities that we built where there was a sense of belonging among students, among staff.

The other thing that's happened, I think, is that when you have a very high degree of accountability. I always think about accountability in terms of like, somebody messed up somewhere. And so now there's a new accountability requirement. And you can also—you can almost trace a line from A to B, like, here's the person who screwed up. And now, we're all going to be held accountable because this mistake happened, or whatever, and I like to reframe that accountability conversation into a personal and collective responsibility conversation.

But one of the things that I think has happened with the teaching force in particular is teachers have not had a seat at the table to be able to have a responsibility in providing direction for their own futures. And so when teachers don't have a seat at the table in big decision making when it comes to, you know, assessment and accountability and running the school and feeling that responsible sense of being part of the success of students—and I'm not talking about the individual teacher and the individual students, because I've yet to meet a teacher who didn't take personal responsibility for the success of their students. And as a matter of fact, that's probably one of the most emotional components of being a teacher, is knowing that you have a hand in your student success.

But I'm talking about, from an organizational and systems level, having teacher voice. And so one of the things that for me, I was most passionate about is making sure that teachers had a seat at the table and had responsibility and real decision-making authority for collectively determining the future of their classrooms and their schools. And I think that's a huge piece that's missing in today's public education systems, because when the failure occurs, it's much easier to point the finger at the accountability system and say, "I told you so. You didn't ask me my opinion, and therefore I have no sense of responsibility to this." So I don't know if I went way far afield there, but that's my exact perspective on some of the biggest challenges that we're facing in education today.

Paul Beckermann 22:28 You've mentioned technology a couple times in your responses, and also that, you know, during our lifetime, this has been an incredible decade—decades, several decades worth of change and opportunity. So let's just focus in on the technology, just briefly, because it's constantly changing. That's something that has change kind of baked into it.

What would you say are two or three of the biggest technology change agents, you know, the big boulders that dropped in the water and had ripples all over the place, and maybe some insight from, you know, your past experience as a school leader, what has helped teachers and systems actually make one of those changes successful?

Michael McCormick 23:15 Man, there's been so much. I'm thinking about two things. One is data systems. When I think about the software systems of late that have allowed for data visualization, I think this has been such a key part of actually operationalizing the professional learning community, or PLC: providing teachers with actionable data around their students to have those conversations and be able to use that data in a formative way so that the instruction of either the department or the grade level team can be modified in a preventative way, to have an impact or a change on the instructional outcomes. And so, to me, empowering teachers with usable data, particularly in a visual form, I think has been a huge game changer, but it's not really one of those sexy software developments that makes the headline. Because there are so many different instructional software platforms and assessment platforms, but I'm kind of grouping this one in the area of usable, actionable data to actually empower teachers to make a difference in the lives of students. I think that, for me, has been one of the big areas.

The other area is actually more on the hardware side. For me, we spent a lot of time in my school district working with various technology companies to come up with something that could liberate teachers from the front of the classroom so that they didn't feel like they were being tied to the whiteboard, so that they would have better mobility to move throughout the classroom, all the while have the hardware technology in their hands to be able to display whatever they were working on on their laptop or tablet, you know, into a bigger visual space for kids, where they could see what they were doing.

And so we spent a lot of time, a lot of energy, a fair amount of money, trying to solve that problem. And I think that, in some ways, it's still fertile ground, although we're getting closer to freeing up the teacher to be where they need to be at any moment in the classroom, but still completely tied to their technology, because you're either tethered to your desk where you've got access to your keyboard and mouse, or you're on some sort of a smart board at the front of the classroom, and you've got to stay there.

And so, the idea of proximity and being able to move freely throughout the space, because we know that instructional cycle—and people who are not teachers, I think, have a difficult time understanding this—but the student and teacher interactions are so nuanced and so timely that if you miss a beat, you've missed an opportunity, and you don't want the technology to slow that down. You actually want the technology to force multiply what you're able to do within the classroom so that you can capture all of those teachable moments with kids.

Paul Beckermann 27:05 What I like about both of your examples, Mike, is that they were actionable solutions to problems that you had or challenges that you had. So it wasn't just tech sprinkled on because it was this fancy new technology; it was actionable and intentional to solving that problem. That's really key in my mind. Yeah.

Michael McCormick 27:23 Thanks. Well, we were trying not to just throw glitter on stuff.

Paul Beckermann 27:28 That's right, you can never get glitter off.

Rena Clark 27:32 I like glitter, come on, Paul.

Paul Beckermann 27:34 Glitter is nice, but you got to admit, you can't get it off.

Rena Clark 27:38 That's why LED lights are so much better. Yeah.

Winston Benjamin 27:41 That's true. That's time and place, dance.

Rena Clark 27:43 Party. Dance. Anyway, okay.

Winston Benjamin 27:45 Time and place for all of it, and I'm down with the dance party.

Here's a question that I have: You mentioned this in your answer. AI has made things move fast. Cell phones. I don't even know what number iPhone people are on; it just every year there's a new something, right? So there is a speed that change is happening. What advice would you give to people in order to process the speed of change and how to deal with the uncertainty and ambiguity as it comes with the fact that it's "tomorrow, something new; tomorrow, something new; tomorrow, something new"? What advice would you give?

Michael McCormick 28:24 Yeah, I think what you describe is kind of that VUCA, you know, world that we're living in and trying to navigate. And I think that this is where the pragmatism of leadership is so critical. If you're grounded in a North Star for your school district or your school system, then you're not likely to hashtag squirrel and get off track by the next shiny object.

This is kind of the thing that separates leaders, and I'm talking about leaders at every level of the organization. I'm talking about your support staff leaders, your teacher leaders, your instructional coach leaders, your counselor leaders, your administrative leaders. But this is where leadership at every level of the organization can be so powerful: if there's kind of this collective shared wisdom around what is your North Star. And once you have that kind of etched and you've built visuals to support that and mental models to support that North Star, then people see what is their entry point into supporting the North Star.

And I think that's where solid leadership at every level of the organization is required, and that's what keeps organizations on track. And I would say more importantly, this is what keeps solid organizations moving in the right direction, because they have a sense, and it's a shared sense of what is the main work. We've got to keep the main thing the main thing, and then it changes your perspective. You're not looking for that silver bullet. You're not looking for that quick fix. The short answer, you're looking for things.

And particularly, I would say this around technology adoption: You're looking for technology adoption that supports your existing North Star, so you're not diffusing your resources, your human capital, your financial resources, to a point where people within the organization no longer have a sense of what the priority is, because there's too many competing priorities.

Rena Clark 31:00 I love that. I was just talking about North Stars today. It's like you were reading my mind how important they are, yeah. Well, our time is winding down, but I would love for you just to take a moment, just to tell our audience about your new role with AVID specifically.

Michael McCormick 31:17 Yeah. What a great opportunity. You know, I retired. I lasted a whole 15 days. My wife said, "No, not the wrong way, but you got to get out of the house. You can't be home every day." I'm too much. I require a lot of supervision.

And so this—this tremendous opportunity came up with AVID to be the inaugural Superintendent in Residence. And I think, well, there are some big rocks in terms of what I'm charged with doing, and really it's working with principals across the nation, working with superintendents across the nation. Because I think we're at a point in our evolution within AVID where there's a realization that an investment is needed to build leaders.

I think for many, many years, AVID has been a very teacher-facing organization, which it should be. We're all about instruction and pedagogy, and, you know, student outcomes. My experience with Google is not unlike that. I think Google, in the beginning, was a very teacher-facing organization in terms of the diffusion of technology into the classroom, and at some point, probably within the last decade, I think Google realized that you needed to capture the leaders as well to be able to lead this.

I've said often that the principalship is not a spectator sport. It requires rethinking the everyday and how to be more surgical about chasing after those collective goals that you've set for yourself within your school or your district. So I think the Superintendent in Residence for AVID is really about supporting and investing in leaders at all levels of the organization, but starting with the National Principals Collaboratives that we've built, and the Superintendent Collaboratives that we've built. And then I'm doing all kinds of other fun things. I'm hosting webinars. I'm all over TikTok for the newly created AVID TikTok channel, and just loving life. I feel like it's just been such a beautiful thing for me to join this incredible AVID family.

Paul Beckermann 33:52 That's awesome. So this change has been good, yeah?

Michael McCormick 33:55 And, you know? And here's the thing, talk about change. I mean, I'm convinced that there's something to be said for neuroplasticity. I went from a Mac environment to a PC environment when I retired from the school district. I gave up my iPhone and my iPad. I now have a Google Pixel phone with a new phone number and a Google Pixel pad. And so, I don't think there's any part of my life that has been untouched by change at this moment, and I'm surviving, and I'm old.

Paul Beckermann 34:33 Hey, we're glad you're here. And you know what? You get to join us in the toolkit. Right on. Check it out.

Transition Music with Rena's Children 34:40 Check it out. Check it out. Check it out. Check it out. Check it out. What's in the toolkit? Check it out.

Paul Beckermann 34:50 All right. Toolkit time. Who wants to go first? Rena, Winston, who'd like to drop first? We'll leave Mike till the end.

Winston Benjamin 34:58 I'll jump in. I'm going to throw this into the toolkit. One thing that we've always been talking about is the absolute changes when AI moves so quickly, right? So one of the things that we want you to check out is our AVID Open Access older podcast, to have a conversation and think about how you can slow down and use AI. Because one of the things that we're asking you to do is not jump through speeds, but slow down to be able to make the change and utilize the opportunity. So take a moment, think through those, and see how that can help you. Awesome.

Rena Clark 35:32 Good advice: "Slow down to go far." You know, everything Michael has been saying, and even my own experience right now, just makes me think how important it is to even understand and get to know your own core values, your goals, and even as you're maybe moving or changing and looking at different organizations. If you have a very strong understanding of self, then you have a better understanding also. I am very much a vision and North Star person, and I need calibration on that. So I think having an understanding of self and then how you can fit into those other places and find your role can be really helpful as you're dealing with change and adjustment.

Paul Beckermann 36:13 Yeah, so what—what are those T-shirts? Those "Keep Calm" T-shirts, right? "Keep Calm and Carry On." So I think "Keep Calm and Change." I mean, it's going to change, something's going to change, but kind of keep calm. I think that's my toolkit. You got to be honest about the change, but don't be alarmist, maybe, about it. You know, take everything with a little bit of a grain of salt. Take a step back, look at the big picture, and ask yourself, you know, "How can I benefit from this change? Maybe I didn't ask for this change, but what's something positive that maybe I can take out of it?" And the mindset thing is my toolkit item, I think, absolutely. Michael, what would you like to add?

Michael McCormick 36:57 Yeah, I was thinking about, you know, I'm just coming off of a couple of days at ASU GSV down in San Diego, great tech conference. And I would—I would double click on everything you said, because the pace of change is exponential, and I think it's the pragmatist that has the advantage right now. And I don't say that in terms of being unwilling to move, but I think that slowing down and re-examining your why, your personal and kind of collective "Why," is super important.

And then I want to give a shout out to one tool that I did see at ASU GSV, which is a completely free tool. It's called Career Dreamer. It's by Google, and it's just another tool in the toolkit, and it's all around career exploration. And, you know, in AVID we talk about our college and career readiness framework, and one of the sides of the triangle at the top there is opportunity knowledge. And so I was thinking about Career Dreamer in terms of opportunity knowledge, and what a great tool to put in the hands of our kids. So there you have it.

Winston Benjamin 38:21 I love the fact that you're thinking about tools to give our kids, but it's time for that one thing.

Transition Music 38:29 It's time for that one thing. It's that one thing.

Winston Benjamin 38:40 What's the one thing that's still running through your mind that you're like, "Ooh, that idea. I love it. I want to continue to chew on that"? Paul, Rena, what's your one thing that you're still thinking about?

Paul Beckermann 38:53 I can jump in first. I'm percolating on Mike's comment about when you're looking at systems changes, you really need to get educators a seat at the table. And I probably didn't realize the wisdom of my principal until years later, but we moved from a seven-period day to a block schedule. It's a big change. It impacted lots of things.

So what he required: Not only did we have to agree to it as a staff by a 75% vote, which is pretty high (it's hard to get 75% of the people on anything), but we did. And then he required every single staff member to be on one of the organizational committees for restructuring the schedule. Everybody had to take part somewhere. So every single staff member had a voice in that change, even though they didn't have a voice on every single part, everybody had a voice. And that went a huge long way toward getting buy-in and ownership of the staff into that change. It became their change, and I love that, even if they didn't necessarily want to. I always talk about that dissident—sometimes you don't know until you're in.

Rena Clark 40:00 So whether they wanted that seat or not, they had the seat, which then I think we forget that sometimes that is part of the process too, yeah.

Paul Beckermann 40:08 And those folks had very valid concerns, you know, but they were able to work through that with their colleagues. And, boy, it worked out really well. Yeah.

Rena Clark 40:17 Well, I love something that Michael said. I like the way you put this—this idea of legacy mental models. I'm going to use that term from now on. But I just like, how can we disrupt legacy mental models, especially knowing that our families have this legacy mental model as well, since they all have an experience, or mostly have an experience, with the school system. So I'm just thinking about that.

Winston Benjamin 40:42 I feel that, because how do we make change if we don't have people actually willing to get out of their own way? But one of the things that I really like is a coworker, one of my coworkers, Tina Gourd, she always says this: "Ambiguity is an opportunity." And the reason why ambiguity is an opportunity is nobody knows the rules. Make it up. If they aren't going to tell you no, you don't even know what they don't even know. So, like, in the point of change, where it's ambiguous, everybody's trying to figure it out, do your thing. Like, you have an opportunity to just do your thing. Maybe the change would be good or bad, but like, like Mikey said, "Go to school. Maybe you could change a kid," you know what I mean? So I really appreciate that. I'm going to say it again, because I really loved how you said this whole conversation will change from Mike/Michael, all that, and now I'm going to throw it back to you. Yo, Mikey.

Michael McCormick 41:38 Yeah, I love that, man. What's your one thing?

My one thing is: let's never forget that change is emotional, and oftentimes, I think that people jump to change too quickly, and they leave out the emotional attachment that the existing people have worked on to improve the current system. People have put in blood, sweat, and tears to build the current system, and it's the dominant system.

And so as we think about change, we have to actually hospice in the most loving way, the pieces of that dominant system that people have invested heavily in, and we need to lovingly get them to release the emotional attachment that they have with that dominant system they've built so that they can move into the emergent system. And that's a very emotional process, and so change takes time, and we can't move too quickly, because we cut out the people that invested in building and tweaking and improving the current dominant system.

Rena Clark 43:08 That's like a mic drop moment. I just want to take that in. So wise. You're like a Yoda moment, I feel like.

Well, Michael, I guess we're going with Mikey now. I'm so glad that you joined us today. We really appreciated you dropping your wisdom all the way from the detention center to now in this new role of supporting leaders. I think it's wonderful for AVID to support all of those rounds. So thank you, and it will be interesting. Maybe we can have you back on in a year and see just the changes that have occurred. I would...

Michael McCormick 43:49 ...love that. It's been great spending time with you guys today. I really appreciate it.

Rena Clark 43:54 Well, thank you so much. Thanks for listening to Unpacking Education.

Winston Benjamin 43:59 We invite you to visit us at avidopenaccess.org, where you can discover resources to support student agency and academic tenacity to create a classroom for future-ready learners.

Paul Beckermann 44:12 We'll be back here next Wednesday for a fresh episode of Unpacking Education.

Rena Clark 44:17 And remember, "Go forth and be awesome."

Winston Benjamin 44:21 Thank you for all you do.

Paul Beckermann 44:23 You make a difference.