The AI Revolution in Education, with Claire Zau

In this episode, we are joined by Claire Zau, Vice President at GSV Ventures. In her role in the company, she does extensive research into emerging educational technology that is transforming education at all levels. In our conversion, Claire shares her insights into trends, advantages, and challenges surrounding AI infused technology. She also provides a preview of the upcoming AI Revolution AIR Show Conference. Visit AVID Open Access to learn more.

Transcript

#276 -- The AI Revolution In Education With Claire Zau

38 min
AVID Open Access

Keywords

ai, teachers, education, students, platforms, people, claire, data, create, digital divide, amplify, build, powerschool, opportunity, winston, space, tools, k12, bots, copilot

Speakers

Claire (64%), Rena (12%), Paul (11%), Winston (10%), Speaker 1 (2%), Student (1%)

Claire Zau  0:00  

Schools are going away. Nobody's ever going to talk to a real teacher. We're just only going to talk to AI chat bots from now on and it's going to be perfect and cheap and highly personalized. Everything's evolving so quickly that sometimes it feels like you close your eyes for a second and five new updates from OpenAI have come out.

Rena Clark  0:19  

The topic for today's podcast is the AI revolution in education with Claire Zau. Unpacking Education is brought to you by avid.org. AVID believes every student deserves a quality education. To learn more about AVID, visit their website at avid.org. Welcome to Unpacking Education, the podcast where we explore current issues and best practices in education. I'm Rena Clark.

Paul Beckermann  0:50  

I'm Paul Beckermann. 

Winston Benjamin  0:51  

And I'm Winston Benjamin. We are educators.

Paul Beckermann  0:55  

And we're here to share insights and actionable strategies.

Student  0:59  

Education is our passport to the future. 

Rena Clark  1:05  

Our quote today is from promotional communication for the AI revolution, AIR Show. The quote reads, "The best way to predict the future is to create it." So it's a short quote today, but lots of thought and response. So why don't you start us off, Paul?

Speaker 1  1:22  

It is a short one compared to what we've been having, isn't it? Well, it reminds me of another quote that somebody once said to me. 

Rena Clark  1:24  

Shocking!

Paul Beckermann  1:24  

Somebody once said to me, "There are three kinds of people: those that make things happen, those that watch things happen, and those that wonder what just happened." And this quote makes me think of how we need to be the ones who make things happen. We need to be the creators. We need to get out there and be invested in our own future so that we can create the reality that we want it to be. That's what it makes me think of.

Rena Clark  1:57  

How about you, Winston?

Winston Benjamin  1:59  

So the way I'm thinking about this quote is from an equitable lens, understanding that there's a lot of people who are left out of the current state of the world. And I think with this open opportunity, they can truly be a part of designing and creating a space that allows them to access resources equitably in the world. So I really appreciate this idea about how individuals who've been left out can be a part of the future.

Rena Clark  2:30  

Yeah, I appreciate that. Well, I'm excited to welcome Claire Zau to the show. Welcome.

Claire Zau  2:38  

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Rena Clark  2:40  

So Claire is Vice President at GSV Ventures. Can you just take a moment to tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself? Maybe your background?

Claire Zau  2:50  

Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much for having me on here. I'll kick off with a little bit more context on GSV, if that's helpful; then I can dive a little bit deeper into my work on the team. But GSV is a broader platform. Two core parts of it are GSV Ventures, which is an early stage ed tech fund, focusing on investing in the most exciting and transformative platforms and technology tools, changing the face of education across what we'd like to call preK to gray. So early childhood, K12, higher ed, workforce. We've invested in companies like Coursera—which is now public—Handshake, ClassDojo, Nearpod, and many more—tools serving schools, districts, teachers, as well as parents and students themselves. And as part of that, we also host the ASU+GSV Summit, as well as the AIR Show. These are events where we can convene leaders in the education technology space. We've always believed that it's critical for people in the space to convene and create this marketplace where district leaders, superintendents, higher ed leaders, enterprise leaders can interface with the actual builders of these tools, referencing the quote you mentioned earlier. So I've worn many hats across both of these organizations. Primarily, I spend my day job identifying the next big ed tech companies that are going to become the scaled platforms that every student or family uses for not only education and learning, but productivity as well. And then my night job is I write a fun little AI and education newsletter; I have been very passionate about the space and very excited to be part of the massive platform shift that we're seeing today. 

Rena Clark  4:38  

That sounds really interesting. So you get a lot of information, probably earlier than the rest of us in a lot of ways. So what trends are you seeing right now in AI? Or as you said, preK to gray, but maybe more in the K12 education setting? 

Claire Zau  4:55  

I think it's interesting because we've seen a lot of people clearly recognize that there's massive opportunity in disrupting education space. If you look at the first wave of how the internet impacted education, it was amazing because it definitely widened access; people had access to things like Coursera, Udemy, Khan Academy, and a lot of it was largely a digitization of existing physical goods and curriculum, and then maybe a digitization of ways of teaching. But I think people have now recognized that there's this massive opportunity to not only widen access, but actually fundamentally transform how we teach and run school. So it's been interesting to see different approaches to it. I think I would say there are three emerging groups of companies building in this space, especially as a tech investor. A lot of people with not so much experience in the actual K12 classroom are coming in saying that schools are going away, nobody's ever going to talk to a real teacher, we're just only going to talk to AI chat bots from now on, and it's going to be perfect and cheap and highly personalized; I don't think that's the route we'll see. And then there are interesting trends around incumbents and existing platforms in this space rolling out AI tools. So for example, PowerSchool today announced their PowerBuddy coming out, Instructor striking a partnership with Khan Academy, you name it. And then obviously a lot of really exciting new entrepreneurs entering the space because they do see white space where they can build solutions, for studying, teaching, or even operating a school district much more efficiently.

Paul Beckermann  6:39  

And you mentioned AI kind of being one of the big disruptors now happening in the industry. Let's talk about AI just a little bit, maybe starting with teachers. What do you see as the obstacles or challenges that are ahead, as well as the opportunities in the AI space for teachers? 

Claire Zau  6:59  

I think it's interesting, because there are multiple definitions of AI. I think everything's evolving so quickly that sometimes it feels like you close your eyes for a second and, you know, five new updates from OpenAI have come out. And so I think there's this daunting element to being able to feel like you can participate in these technological advances. I think one thing that I've heard people interfacing much more with, with school districts and classrooms, is the fact that AI is not necessarily a completely new concept that has just arrived with the advent of ChatGPT. It's actually been present in our K12 classrooms for a very long time. And even just on a consumer level, every time you've used face ID, every time you use Siri—those are forms of AI. So there's not this very binary pre-AI/post-AI moment. And I think that's kind of been a hurdle to get past. I think another thing is just that there hasn't been a lot of move towards standardized guidelines. And I think we're flying the plane as it's being built right now. And so it's difficult to think through things like how do you implement district-wide AI literacy programs? How do you implement rules or requirements around AI usage when you don't even know what some of these foundation model providers are going to release in the next few days? And so I think those are the two biggest barriers right now. But you know, there are great organizations like TeachAI, aiEDU, and countless more that are working to think through how to strategically implement AI in classrooms.

Speaker 1  8:53  

So on the other side of things, what do you see as some of the exciting opportunities for educators in the AI world?

Claire Zau  9:03  

I think we're seeing a lot of startups and existing platforms tackle the more administrative tasks that might be able to be automated in the space. The stat that goes around is teachers spend about 40% of their time on administrative work, whether that's writing up grading reports, or even just, liaising between those in the district, or in the school system liaising with parents and such. And so there have been companies like MagicSchool AI—which has grown to over a million educators—Curipod, Brisk Teaching, a number of these that are tackling building this AI copilot for teachers. So taking away that more manual administrative work so that teachers can actually focus on what they love doing, which is teaching and building relationships with students. I think that's been a very big market and one where we've seen a lot of startups emerge. I think another interesting moment has been the fact that a lot of incumbents/established companies have also really tried to tackle weighing the market share in the space. But beyond the AI copilot idea, there have been interesting platforms focused on teacher PD. For example, there's a company called TeachFX that is trying to apply the model of having an AI listen in your classroom or listen in during your PD session. So they've kind of simulated a platform like Gong or Chorus in the sales space. For context, those platforms sit in on your sales force Zoom calls, they transcribe them, they give you a holistic view of, "You're using this word too much; you're expressing this emotion too much." Being able to embed a mix of AI and behavioral analytics, as well as coaching in one platform. And so I think a similar vision, but applying that to teacher PD. So that's interesting. And then not necessarily specific to teachers, but system-wide, there are a couple platforms doing interesting things around data. So the idea that you can now actually talk to your data—what once was a process of having to pull tedious reports from PowerSchool can now be done through a very simple text box where you just enter natural language and say, "Hey, can you calculate or predict how my fourth graders will do on this test this semester or in the next week?" And so there are a lot of really interesting applications. Where we've seen the biggest growth of startups build has been in this AI copilot space. But I actually think there are a lot more interesting, long-term ideas system-wide beyond just building that teacher copilot.

Winston Benjamin  12:00  

I appreciate that you're mentioning not just the systems that support making the teachers job easier, but also those that provide opportunities to maximize student engagement—the real work that teachers like to do. So I appreciate that. What were you gonna say, Paul?

Paul Beckermann  12:19  

It's cool that the AI is sort of breaking down some of the interface barriers for teachers. Analytics scare people sometimes because they don't know how to work in the spreadsheet, or how to do the formulas and things like that. But if you can just talk to it and say, "Give me this information," that is a barrier breaker for teachers and it makes things so much more accessible. I can totally see that being a game changer for data usage. 

Claire Zau  12:46  

Yeah, definitely. This is something like Schoolzilla was trying to do—creating a comprehensive schoolwide view of your students. And so what AI is really good at—especially generative AI—is taking unstructured data, and then synthesizing that into digestible insights and even prediction. It's exactly what you're saying—the idea that you no longer are restricted to only having insights into data if you exist in a large school district. Now this data copilot, or data assistant, can exist in any school district or any school system.

Paul Beckermann  13:34  

I can just see teachers sitting around in their PLCs asking the AI questions about their data, instead of sitting there with all these reports. AI almost becomes another member of their PLC in some ways. 

Claire Zau  13:47  

Exactly.

Winston Benjamin  13:47  

I appreciate this part of the conversation. As an educator, I'm finding value in AI. It helps make my job easier. It streamlines things. It supports. And even in this conversation right now, the data talks about students. How are teachers looking and talking about students? So I'm going to turn the question into about how students are accessing AI, and how AI can support students. What are some of the obstacles that students may face? And how might they overcome those obstacles of engaging with AI and interpreting AI itself? Since it's coming from a teacher lens.

Claire Zau  14:31  

I think it's interesting because there's a lot of consumer-driven usage of AI. So one thing that's very clear is students are using AI in and outside of classrooms. Whether or not you like it or control it or restrict them from using it, it exists in their Snapchat in the form of their AI Snapchat buddy that is automatically installed in every single Snapchat. It's already widespread on Instagram. So I think there's a level of building AI literacy through that, which is somewhat encouraging. This generation of digital natives generally has grown up in a world where things like deep fakes are things you have to start learning about from a very young age. But I think on the consumer front, students are naturally already being drawn to AI tutoring applications. And when I say AI tutoring, I don't necessarily think that these AI tutor platforms are acting as teachers, but much more as, sometimes, Q&A bots. And so a lot of kids are leveraging ChatGPT to get their homework done. And you can kind of see this by the traffic growing; you see these massive traffic bumps in ChatGPT's usage around the school year, and especially even in testing season. You have platforms like Chegg and Quizlet that have all rolled out their own AI tutors. And then, if you look at the education apps or the App Store in the education category, the top five applications right now are almost all question and answer AI tutors. However, I don't know right now if I would classify those as being true tutors. A lot of time, their platforms are just an interface where you can take a photo of your homework; the AI does the homework for you and then crunches out an answer. I do think there is a world where we can achieve what we envision as a true AI tutor—someone who can not only act as your study buddy, but understand what you're struggling with, and even holistically have a sense of what your career and life goals are. I think that is a long-term vision; we haven't seen that be built out yet. Some of the companies tackling this include Khanmigo. They are trying to build with student learning in mind. But I think one of the biggest barriers here though is the fact that in order to build a comprehensive tutor that can actually serve students, you're going to have to be able to plug in a lot of student data that sits in these LMSs in Canvas, in their SISs, on PowerSchool, their assessment data. And I think right now, what's being built is just not actually giving you a true portrait of that student, whether it's knowing what classes they're taking, or what they're struggling with. I think once you actually have more interoperable data flows, you can actually build a comprehensive, true AI tutor. So I think right now, there are student-facing AI tools, but I wouldn't say many of them are achieving true learning outcomes.

Winston Benjamin  18:06  

I appreciate you recognizing the actual drawbacks in terms of the inability to differentiate for students' actual needs as a large scope. But now that we have some of those issues—and you said that your company goes from K to gray (I love that)—what opportunities do you forsee for students at different grade levels as they mature and move through that K to gray?

Claire Zau  18:37  

Yeah, I think there's a ton of opportunity in the K12 space in just re-leveling content for students of different grades. You're seeing that from platforms like Diffit, Brisk, and a bunch of these where you can actually increase the accessibility of the content as well. So it's not only leveling content, but also reformatting it in ways that might appeal and increase engagement of students. Once we achieve more multimodal AI formalities, instead of having an essay you can input a text and it'll create an entire video and walk you through that text. The ability to basically re-remix and reformat content in different ways for different grade levels is really exciting. There's much more on the consumer space but a really great startup called Ello and another one called LitLab and another one called Project Read. They allow you to create decodables that are personalized on a student level. So if I know that Claire likes Spider Man but Bobby likes horses, the teacher can assign the vocab words they want their class to learn, assign difficulty, assign the amount of personalization. And we will all get similar books, but they're all personalized to just me. So being able to apply that personalization, even across grade levels and across mastery levels is really interesting. Getting the sort of data that you get in K12, historically the barriers that you see across K12, higher ed, and the workforce. If you think about these different institutions of learning, once I leave the K12 system, there's very little data about who I am, what my interests are, how I did in school in K12 when I enter higher ed institution or when I go into the workforce. With this holistic AI copilot, you're able to build much more continuity, and therefore much more personalization. Because when I do enter the workforce, maybe my AI copilot can say, "Hey, you learned this with your favorite teacher in 11th grade. Why don't we revisit this?" Or, "Do you remember when you were reading about the Roman Empire in your Prussian History 101 class? Let's take a look at these notes." I think the ability to bridge learning, both in classroom and out of classroom, as well as between all of these institutions as you navigate them throughout your life is really exciting.

Rena Clark  21:31  

It's fascinating to think about just how important that relationship is. In the beginning, we always highlight it with students, because the teacher has to have relationships, then make those adjustments with AI. So, to people that are worried about the bots taking over, we keep saying those relationships are still key. But then there's this idea of continuity over time. And then I think about personal data and what we give away. That's a whole other podcast, but it seems like you're very knowledgeable. And I'm just curious, what gets you personally excited about AI in general? And what is something you really hope to see in the future? 

Claire Zau  22:12  

I think there's a ton of discourse around exactly what you're saying—"AI is gonna replace us all." But there was a study done by the team that Ethan Mollick was in, as well as HBS. And they looked at a bunch of BCG analysts/consultants and their use of AI in the workforce. And everybody said if you equip them with AI, they're gonna see productivity gains. Yes, they saw that. But what they found that was the most interesting was that by giving everybody AI, they actually saw a leveling of the playing field, meaning that those that entered the study as "lower performing analysts" ended up seeing more gains than those who were higher performing. And so I actually think there's an opportunity for AI to be much more of a leveler as opposed to one that creates even more inequality and disparity between the haves and have nots. I also think reframing AI as, not necessarily a platform that completely replaces humans, but one that kind of amplifies. So thinking of AI not necessarily as artificial intelligence, but augmented intelligence. So what can AI do to make humans better at the things that we love doing, like having relationships with students? So I think there's an opportunity for that. And then thinking through things like AI replacing the teacher in generating lesson plans or assessments. I think it's not necessarily that AI is going to take over teacher workflow; but I think that it almost lowers the floor, and then raises the ceiling for what you can do. And so even just looking at what Canva has released for teachers, the creative explosion in what a teacher can now do in so much less time, I think is really exciting. So yeah, I do think there are definitely concerns. I think it's important to approach this moment with caution, and I would be kidding myself if I said AI is gonna solve everything, and it's a silver bullet. It's really not, but I do think there is this massive opportunity. As a tech investor, this is one of those platform shifts. You kind of see these every 20 or so years with the rise of the internet, the shift to mobile, and timeline-wise, just 20 or so years. This is kind of one of those big, generational discovery moments. 

Paul Beckermann  25:00  

I know that your organization is instrumental in putting together the ASU+GSV Air Show, AIR standing for AI Revolution in education. Do you want to talk a little bit about that conference that's coming up?

Claire Zau  25:22  

Yeah, definitely. We host the ASU+GSV summit that's been going on for about 15 years. It started in partnership with ASU as 300 people in a sweaty conference room on ASU's campus, and eventually grew into the 7000-person event where we had everyone from Sam Altman, to Bill Gates, to Mindy Kaling, to President Obama speak. And that's been really great. That's really been much more focused on industry- and ecosystem-wide trends. And for the last two, or even the last 15 years or so, AI has been a major discussion point. Even last year, AI was mentioned in 99% of panels. We saw an opportunity for that to move downstream. I'll quote one of our Air Council members for the event, saying, "I think there's been a lot of engineers and tech bros in Patagonia vests who are telling teachers what they should or should not do, and how they should think about AI." But I think we do have this opportunity for teachers who are really at the forefront of innovating with AI to teach other teachers. And so really framing it as teachers teaching teachers. And so that's what we want the Air Show to be, really this place for anyone and everyone to celebrate AI in education. Whether you're a teacher, a district leader, a parent, a student—we want this to be an open space where people can actually demo to build their own GPTs, to feel like they're not missing out on this moment and the train is leaving without them. So there's going to be demos from about 150+ different exciting AI and education companies. There's going to be a ton of hackathons and workshops, and the content ranges from, "Ask me anything about LOMs," to "How do you actually think about a system- and district-wide framework of implementing AI?" So there's something for everyone. And we just are really excited for the celebration of AI and education. 

Speaker 1  27:38  

Cool. And it is April 13 through 15 in San Diego. So it's in person, and I believe it's free, but you have to go on the website and get a ticket.

Claire Zau  27:46  

Yes, capacity is limited. Definitely sign up. It's just a great opportunity. And I think we'll have more information about this, but teachers can receive CEU credits as well.

Speaker 1  28:01  

So stay tuned on that. The website is asugsvsummit.com if you want to check that out. All right, fantastic. Thanks for filling us in on that. And it's kind of a tool opportunity. So we're going to jump into our toolkit. 

Student  28:20  

Check it out. Check it out. Check it out.

Speaker 1  28:31  

All right, toolkit time. Winston, why don't you go first? What do you got?

Winston Benjamin  28:35  

TeachFX is one thing that I'm going to search and pay for myself. I run a lot of PDs (professional development) that support young teachers in developing their skills. And this seems like a way to provide immediate feedback to teachers on communication. And we know that feedback is the best thing for student growth. So I'm just seeing how this could be applied to support our teachers in their growth in communicating with students.

Paul Beckermann  29:03  

Yeah, great choice, Winston. Rena, what do you got?

Rena Clark  29:07  

There are so many tools I can choose, but I think I'm going to instead think about the word "amplify." AI is showing up in a lot of tools that we're familiar with or have used before. How can we amplify something we already feel good about and make it even better? Amplify those things we do well. It was interesting; I was creeping in a chat of adminitrators. I wasn't participating. And there's this whole debate of whether they should use ChatGPT with the Danielson Framework to give feedback to teachers. It's highly fascinating. Winston, we can talk about that. But I was just thinking how they are using something like that to amplify what they're doing. And as we talked about, they spend so much time on those evaluations. And we're not taking it word for word but it can really help with some of that language and then they can modify it. And they said it helped them significantly decrease the amount of time so that they could have more time and thought around the actual conversation. So I'm kind of pro use it if it helps you.

Paul Beckermann  30:08  

Yeah, so you're amplifying the human element. Yeah, that's cool. I would say pay attention to how AI is being integrated into tools that you already use. Claire mentioned PowerBuddy coming into the PowerSchool world. My wife, in our district, helps coach teachers with Schoology. Well, that's one of the PowerSchool products. And the PowerBuddy thing basically is a little chat bot inside of Schoology, or inside of PowerSchool, that the teacher can chat with and the student can chat with. It's a buddy. It's a little personalized chatbot that can help. Things like that, and I know Canva has integrated some AI assistants in there. QuestionWell helps teachers generate quiz questions that then can be exported into Kahoot, or quizzes or something that they already know. So I would watch out for AI that's kind of integrated into those familiar spaces, because I think that's going to be a really comfortable and probably powerful entry point for a lot of teachers. Alright, Claire, anything that you haven't had a chance to talk about, or maybe that you want to re-amplify that's a tool that you would like to suggest to teachers?

Claire Zau  31:19  

Yeah, just piggybacking off your point, there's so much coming out in the space, and it is okay to use AI for the first time in the form of some of the more familiar platforms like Quizziz AI, or Canva AI. Getting yourself ramped up to learning how AI works is going to be really helpful. There are also a ton of available resources from groups like AI for Education and such where they partnered with OpenAI to create prompts for teachers to use. So I think that's another resource. Even on OpenAI's website, I think they have a list of education prompts that you can start playing with. So I think the best way to learn right now is just playing them and learning. The most interesting technological advances always seem like toys at first. I think just trying even something as simple as ChatGPT can go a long way.

Winston Benjamin  32:26  

I appreciate that you've given people some tools. And now it's time for the one thing. What's the one thing that still is roaming around in your head that you may have to sleep on and think through later on? So what's that one thing?

Rena Clark  32:41  

It's time for that one thing.

Winston Benjamin  32:55  

Rena, what's your one thing?

Rena Clark  32:57  

Okay, I'm really trying to stick to one today. I liked this idea. It's funny—it came up earlier today in a meeting I was in, but it's teachers teaching teachers. I just think it's so nice to provide that opportunity. Even if it's that we do teacher spotlight for 5 minutes, maybe they're showing something we just talked about and how it's supporting them in their student learning. Sometimes AI still is really scary for people when they hear that; they don't really understand it, even though they're using it constantly. But if they have a colleague in a PLC meeting or a co-teacher meeting, showing them something simple can really go back to amplifying what they're able to do.

Winston Benjamin  33:46  

I'm gonna ask Paul; what are you thinking about?

Paul Beckermann  33:49  

Well, I'm a huge proponent in having teachers start small and start some place that's really accessible that they can have success with and grow their comfort and move on. But I can't stop thinking about this co-pilot idea that could live with you throughout your whole school career. We used to think portfolios that traveled with a kid from kindergarten on up was pretty amazing. But if you could have an AI chatbot that could learn your unique needs and strengths and kind of coach you through—it's kind of blowing my mind a little bit, and I'm kind of curious to see where that all goes.

Rena Clark  34:25  

Yeah, that continuity. It scares me a little and it's exciting, right?

Paul Beckermann  34:32  

Let's start small. It's like the two ends: I would start small, but I'm really excited and kind of intrigued with what it could blow up to.

Winston Benjamin  34:43  

I think I'm similar to you, Paul. I'm excited for where that could go, but also terrified because without a teacher's knowledge, there is no way to interpret the data to support students. As Claire mentioned, with all of those tutoring bots, they don't know enough about the student in order to make sense of their learning. So that's why I'm not really worried about my job. Even if they have a buddy all through their life, they're still gonna need a teacher to be able to help interpret and support that AI bot to support and interpret the student learning. So I appreciate keeping myself in a job. But Claire, I'm gonna throw to you. What's that one thing that's still in your mind?

Claire Zau  35:29  

Yeah, Brookings has this really interesting article called "The third digital divide." If you think about even something that was highlighted by the pandemic: Who had access to the internet and devices to therefore go to school and who did not? This kind of historical digital divide, or existing digital divide between the haves and have nots, that has focused much more on internet access. If we presume that people all eventually get access to internet—everyone gets access to AI and it becomes widespread as the internet—they basically outline this potential concern that you have this new type of digital divide, this idea that those who have access to resources will be able to access what you mentioned, Winston. Just actually being able to access a human in the loop, someone to do the work that a real teacher does. But then those who sit in the camp of the have nots have to resort to speaking to bots, to AI tutors. And you kind of already see this, even when we deal with airlines, right? People who have VIP access or certain credit cards get access to humans to help them through their problems. But for most people, you have to call an AI bot or a conversational AI, they transfer you to another conversational AI, you just get passed around until you figure it out. And so I think there is this very real worry about this digital divide flipped on its head where only people from certain incomes or backgrounds have access to actual humans to do the real teaching. And then everyone else has to resort to the machine teacher. So yeah, I don't know what that looks like. But I think it's definitely top of mind.

Rena Clark  37:29  

That is so fascinating.

Paul Beckermann  37:34  

It's not the digital divide anymore. It's the human divide. What in the world? It sounds like a sci-fi movie, but it's probably closer to reality.

Rena Clark  37:43  

It's flipped on its head. Okay, Claire. You have me pondering now. 

Paul Beckermann  37:47  

I have not thought of that before.

Rena Clark  37:49  

I agree. Well, Claire, I just want to thank you so much for talking with us and giving your perspective and all of your knowledge. I know I've learned a ton and I hope our listeners have to. So thanks again. 

Claire Zau  38:02  

Thank you all for having me.

Winston Benjamin  38:04  

Thank you. 

Paul Beckermann  38:05  

Thanks so much and good luck with the AIR Show.

Claire Zau  38:07  

Thank you.

Rena Clark  38:12  

Thanks for listening to Unpacking Education. 

Winston Benjamin  38:14  

We invite you to visit us at avidopenaccess.org where you can discover resources to support student agency, equity, and academic tenacity to create a classroom for future-ready learners.

Speaker 1  38:29  

We'll be back here next Wednesday for a fresh episode of Unpacking Education.

Rena Clark  38:34  

And remember, go forth and be awesome.

Winston Benjamin  38:37  

Thank you for all you do.

Paul Beckermann  38:39  

You make a difference.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai